every boat is different.
I know guys with LL's with tons of abuse & no issues, but my huck got 16 cracks in one season (thank you bitchethane!!!). My new huck no problems with the same abuse, same creeks.
Had a riot air that everybody said wouldn't last 1/2 season the way I paddle, but I kicked the crap out of till I actually wore it through on a concrete wall slide.
buy your boat with the reputation of the company in mind. Design is great, but a company that stands behind the boats that break is a big factor.
It's easy to jump on board and jump on the band wagon. But, having looked at the boat and inspected it, plus seeing others in the past do the same thing. He just worn through the bottom of the boat. Most of the original plastic is gone. The plastic that is left is paper thin. I seen it happen to Pyrahna, Wave Sport, Dagger, Liquid Logic, Prijon, and Esikmo. You scrap enough rock and you remove too much plastic, you have nothing left to make a boat out of.
I would be very suprised if Dirk breaks very many boats in his lifetime. He's just not throwing around as much mass as the others. Josh and Steve on the other hand have givin thier bats a little more tough love than others.
Steve- you talk about how little time your boat lasted. Why don't you tell the folks here where you've been paddling for the last year. Number of river miles or just a best guess at the number of hours you spent in your kayak. Some opions may be shifted.
Josh- bought his boat slightly used from longtime paddler. He only paddled 50+ days (between Sept '06 and May '07- you know the high water season) On Clear Creek, Foxton, Waterton, and all the other high water runs we have here on the Front Range. And while doing rock spins, grinds, seal launchs, and ceament surfing sessions at Golden... he worn through the bottom.
Tough love is tough love. Every kayak is different and every paddler is different. I know everyone here wants unconditional warrenties that cover whatever you can dishout. Anything less is BS! But in the real world, it's a one on one basis. As of right now no one warrenties used kayaks, and no one replaces every kayak they sell.
I've broken one kayak in 16 years of paddling. I have a customer that has broken 16 kayaks in that same amount of time. And, for him... It's still the kayak companies fault every single time. No matter who made it.
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I love to dance, but who needs the music- It throws me off.
Had a Dagger CFS for two long seasons, boated at least 100 days a season (200 + days total) in the boat.
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I have a Kingpin that I've pinned, swam, boofed ONTO rocks (insert: idiot), splatted, swam some more, etc. It's also flown off a roofrack at 50 mph. It shows lots of cosmetic wear, but otherwise is fine. Its 3 seasons old and is totally bulletproof.
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I beat the ever-living crap out of a Dagger Id for 3+ seasons (probably about 300-360 days).
In no way am I a Dagger representative don't even sell the boats in the store anymore. Say what you will about Dagger boats, yeah they leak, but they seem to bend before breaking, hence why I am boating in my second Kingpin after the first one lasted me 3 years and the guy before me 1 and mine has done everything paddlebizzles has as well including two trips off the roof rack at about 70mph. My roomate is also on his second Kingpin and creeks in a CFS. Daggger has good plastic and is a good company.
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"Gangstas make the world go round" - Ice Cube
To supplement, I don't want the company to give me a free boat each time, but I do want to be "taken care of", as in a discount on a new boat, the ability to buy a new hull, or some other options. Riot wouldn't even SELL me a new seat when I broke mine (the hull was still good at that point). The companies shouldn't have to support our habits, but they should help a brother out when one breaks after 20 days on the river.
Don @ Confluence, [don't ask what that last post was about]
Seriously, do you still have that offer open to give new-boat credit for broken boats so we can recycle them? I have a paper-thin (ultralight!) Magnum with a custom big-screen fish viewer in the bottom I'd like to donate. Don't crucify me, I already admitted I'm an abuser, it just took me a while to realize it.
To all you other people saying that boats last 20 years in Colorado, you either weigh $1.05, or you don't get out much, or you've got skills to avoid every just-sub-surface sharp rock on runs like Clear & Bear. Don't try to ride the razor-slate out in CB at low water either. I just don't buy the many years thing because I've seen so many people break creekers in a season or less (except Eskimo & Prijon). Lot's of buddies rolling their old-style Saltos & Embudos into the 5th season. It's always the same thing, too. A Front Ranger who tries to boat more than 2 months a year...scratch that, make it one month a year (can you blame us?). I guess that if that's the way you want to roll, then you need to buck up and factor it into the cost of doing the sport.
I second the statement that it would be cool though if you could buy just the shell for a little cheaper and switch the outfitting, drainplug, etc. yourself. I tried to replace the Magnum hull prior to this weekend's catastrophic demise and I was quoted at $660 + $175 shipping CAD$, so about $835 USD. Whatever! Retail is $850. Had the price been in the $400 range I'd probably have done it.
Let's remind everyone that we're not talking about golf clubs or tennis rackets. You're riding a tupperware container down a riverbed full of rocks, branches, etc at 10-??? MPH.
Kayak companies have a hard enough time getting by squeaking a small profit, building boats for next year, paying for R&D, etc. I think that Don's point is pretty spot on. Boats are expensive to develop, take time, money etc. Once a design is found, the mold itself is really expensive. These companies are very seasonal and don't have a steady cash flow stream year round. Their customer base is small, fickle, and very prone to switch brands at the latest drop of a new, fancy design. I tip my hat to them and
am sure glad I'm not in their line of work. If they replaced every single boat without question, they'd probably be out of business.
If you shell out $1k for a brand new boat that breaks a month later, that's one thing. If you last a whole season hitting Class IV+ rivers/creeks/whatever (geography irrelevant), it's likely that you could damage, crack, puncture your boat just by the nature of the sport. There's alot of good press about Jackson and Dagger lately, and I think that the other companies really are good, or they wouldn't be around if they weren't reputable and working with the best interests of their customers in mind. Remember - its a small community and word travels fast. They work hard to build their products and mostly stand behind them. The same goes for paddles.
Thanks everyone for your responses. This has been a learning experience for me.
Don your point was (and still is) well taken. I'm sure you can understand that I wanted to get the opinion of the community as well as my favorite paddle shop that would love to sell me a shiny new boat every June. I guess my expectations for the durability of plastic boats was too high, and you can bet I'll think twice about that seal launch next time. But to be fair, I don't paddle play parks much at all and stay away from Golden entirely below 200. I did Foxton a few times, and Waterton quite a bit (never below 450), and most everything else was on the Ark. Clear Creek? Once at 760. I really don't like scraping down rivers and avoid it whenever possible. Did I try to get a warranty boat? Hell yeah! Wouldn't you? But am I here trashing that company because they said no?
I've broken one kayak in 16 years of paddling. I have a customer that has broken 16 kayaks in that same amount of time. And, for him... It's still the kayak companies fault every single time. No matter who made it.
Bingo.
When I beat up my Id a few years back, I weighed 200-215#. Beating up a playboat is fun...splats, rock spins, etc. I don't intentionally do that kind of abusive stuff (except of a few rock 360s) to a creeker precisely because I want it to hold together when I am counting on it to do what I tell it to do. I run the left side boof over the rock at Deer Creek every time, but I don't go grinding over meaningless rocks just for cheap thrills because that is not fun and it shortens the boat's life.
As for companies turning a profit, it is a tough business. But they are profitable. Part of their problem has been the obtuse stupidity of speeding up the boat release cycle like they did several years ago, although this seems to be back to a 12-month cycle now. Not in the industry any longer, so don't know for sure. But JK has the right idea - make a good boat, and then only re-vamp it every three years. THAT is smart business. Molds cost way too much to put out a poor design, and IMO to put out designs as often as they do right now. Seriously, are you that much more rad in a Project or RX than in a Crazy 88 or ZG? I view the difference as very minor anymore. Keeping designs for 2-3 years would increase profits for the manufacturers and for the retailers, who would benefit because it would likely mean cheaper MSRP and therefore more sales.
Jonny Water do you have my Blunt? And I your CFS? It's still going strong.
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