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Old 07-16-2010   #71
I kayak DH.
Waterwindpowderrock's Avatar
Greater tri cities metro area, Colorado
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 794
Originally Posted by mr. compassionate View Post
Point made several times above and for the life of me don't know how you don't get it. James and Derk weren't on beginner runs, filling in this sieve would not change the character of things how do you not see this?
Well, since the point has been made several times, it must be right. I apologize profusely for not agreeing with you then.

I simply believe that consequences are what they are. Remote or not, class V or not, you need to be aware of your surroundings. There are dangerous intersections, dangerous features on trails, danger lurks everywhere. To say that we should go on a mission to eliminate all danger is just not realistic.

That said, if it got blasted or filled in, that wouldn't bother me either. I have no desire to see beginners perish doing a sport that I enjoy, I just don't see it the way you do. (and btw, my NO... was agreeing with the point made, I would NOT put mu children down that stretch with some gumby guide)

Discover Denver, stay there!
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Old 07-16-2010   #72
Snowhere's Avatar
Buena Vista, Colorado
Paddling Since: 93
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My condolences to the family and all involved in this tragic circumstance.

Now on the river. Leave your dam hands and dynamite off! This is my backyard and not yours. So leave your dynamite in Denver or expect to get shot trying to blow up anything!

Someone died at the low head dam north of Salida this summer. Big signs and they still ignored it. Now that is a structure that should be blown up but I am sure some ranchers would defend it. By the beginner must be protected, that death trap should be removed. Then there was the drowning in Parkdale. Whatever caused that death should be blown up too. It is a slippery slope and once you start, there is no stopping. Any tourist that buys the farm will have their family lobbying to get whatever removed. 'If you don't remove that hazard, Joe Blow died for nothing!'

I have and will continue to take beginners on the Frogrock stretch. The main channel is left and there is little water going right at low flows. It typically a non-issue as I educate my beginners about the hazards as we go. There are many sections of the Ark where we tell clients, if you swim in this rapid, swim xyz way. Typically it is to avoid crap dumped into the river by the railroad or where something was blown up for the railroad. Anytime there has been hap-hazard destruction on the Ark, it has made the river more hazardous. Raft Ripper in Browns was a man made rapid. The railroad made it when they blew up part of the mountain and it all went into the river. It makes a pretty fun rapid at high flows, but it is full of sharp, jagged rocks that can injure a swimmer or raft at lower flows. Blowing up rocks on the Ark is not the answer!

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Old 07-16-2010   #73
loot87's Avatar
Lyons, Colorado
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 84
Denver vs BV? Really??
Seems like most people on this thread from Denver oppose filling and plenty from BV support it.

Our opinions don't mean anything anyway. YOUR raft companies will be the ones that take action, if there is any.
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Old 07-16-2010   #74
Matt J's Avatar
Leadvillian, Colorado
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 381
This is lame. No one is going to blow up anything.

This is about a girl who lost her life prematurely. It's always sad when a light is lost. May she rest in peace and her family find solace in her dying doing something she loved.
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Old 07-16-2010   #75
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Park City/ Buena Vista, Utah/Colorado
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I apologize for opening this debate up... I say "fill it in," and FYI... walking around it like most raft companies are doing now is trespassing. There is a sign on river left telling you that you are returning to public land right as you pass "the Rock." Its funny how people say you shouldn't alter mother nature but 2 miles down stream the river is way altered by the South Main River Project... think about it... Rest In Peace.
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Old 07-16-2010   #76
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Salida, Colorado
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I strongly vote to fill it in... I would rather move a few rocks to save a life than put up a giant ugly fucking sign that no one will read anyway. Better signage is not the answer..

People have brought up good points with the bombing of in bounds ski runs, clearing trails, etc etc. The Ark is not a pristine wilderness run.. and Kayaking/Rafting/Fishing etc ARE NOT pristine sports.

I love the environment probably more than most.. But people are basically suggesting we should leave the sieve in place so nature can establish its dominance every couple of years??In this case the dominance involves killing someones son/daughter. Do we really need more reminders?? It just took 87 days to stop an oil leak.. everyone knows nature is more powerful.. but in living a modern life we flirt with the line. Drilling several miles below the ocean.. bad fucking idea. One stick of dynamite to save 6 fellow boaters... Make the logical decision here people.

There is NOTHING natural about putting your plastic kayak in the river, and paddling down the river wrapped in petroleum products. You probably drove your car to the put-in too ect ect.. There's a hole in the ground somewhere where ALL that gear came from. Somewhere there is an impact, You harmed nature just to get on the river.. and it is NOT a natural experience.

Don't now start to draw the line because you all the sudden "don't want dynamite in your backyard".. It's not your backyard, its everyone's. When someone wants to shut down our river access we tell them that everyone owns the river. Now when it seems like there's a strong movement towards modifying a hazard.. people all the sudden want to claim some type of ownership and make a statement about preserving nature over a lousy sieve??? I don't buy the slippery slope argument.. we are intelligent people and we should make the intelligent decision.

Just my 2 cents... not trying to make any enemies.. trying to encourage an informed discussion.. and play a little devils advocate
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Old 07-16-2010   #77
Blade&Shaft's Avatar
Roaring Fork Valley, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2008
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 227
Damn. Wondering about why Frog Rock is still in existence a day ago, and 50+ posts later we really have some thoughts flowing here...

I'm on the fence (well, kinda). I can understand all the "nature as it's meant to be," "slippery slope," "education," and "preservation (of life)" viewpoints. I guess for me, ultimately, and as I guide myself, I see Frog Rock as a horribly dangerous section of otherwise not exciting water that deems a mandatory portage for the company I work for. The simple logic: Why risk it? Take out as much of the danger factor as possible. Custies walk, guides R1 down the left. I've ran it near 100 times likely, and yea, I do get a little anxious everytime, but percieve it as mostly a mental game at this point. That being said, IF one does heed the warning of the sign, IF one does portage, IF one does run left, IF one is aware of the danger of the spot, then most types of accident are near guaranteed to be avoided. I think that overall, I'm left siding with the grim, but REALISTIC standpoint that accidents do happen (no matter what you're doing) and that there is inherent risk indeed involved in river sports, all sports, and life in general.

We've all made good points here. I'm indifferent as well as to if it gets filled in or not, but sure, it'd be great if it did. It's not going to get blown up. I don't think better signage will help (I haven't actually looked at it in awhile, but isn't it a skull and crossbones??). Being aware, and aware that you are NOT in a controlled environment (Water World) but essentially in a wilderness area, is the most important topic brought up here. This tragedy simply reminds us of it, in all the worst ways. I also think the "education" idea was right on, just a little misguided. It's not like education in the sense of, "Hey, that's what an undercut rock looks like, Hey, that's what happens if you swim there." It's more education on the part of guides and the boating community to any and everyone else about how to respect nature and our rivers. The whole "illusion of safety" and "when the curtain drops" deal rings most true for me. There shouldn't be a curtain up in the first place, a veil disguising the actual and real present dangers, because shit hits the fan in the civilized world, so no one should be surprised when it might do the same in a wilderness area, or a river. The unfortunate flipside to this is that on this highly commercial section of river, it's impossible to make everyone realize this. No efforts will be enough, no matter which section of river we're talking about. Someone will always be shielded behind the curtain, under the impression that nothing can go wrong on "Colorado's Classic Class III" in Brown's Canyon. Preperation and an understanding of what we're really dealing with goes so far. More than adequate safety and river orientations save lives. Shocking people out of their comfort zone (no, the raft is not tracks mam...) and even scaring them can be okay in the right scenario as far as preparing them for the reality of enjoying our rivers.
I propose none of this, really, in relationship specifically towards the guide that tragically passed. I just think that this incident best serves as a reminder to all of us about everything I just said. I do think it drills the point home more, however, having a guide involved in the accident rather than a customer.
Sad regardless. Have fun and be safe on the river.
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Old 07-18-2010   #78
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 21
the vote...

Its 17 to 13 in favor of the fillers/blasters including my vote in favor of filling. Did not count the ones who said that better signage & education would work (they won't).

I have a feeling that some of you posting your opinions against filling/blasting have never seen this God-awful place they refer to as a "rapid". You are basing your opinon on ethics..."Don't mess with Mother Nature". Well, this river and this rapid are about as natural as the hot-tub in my back yard. I've been paddling WW for over 20 years and have never seen a "beast" like this one. It seems to be just sitting there, patiently waiting for its next victim. It may not kill again today or tomorrow or even next year, but it WILL kill again. And there is no amount of signage or education that will stop it.

I was there in August, 2001, the day after Bernd & Jennifer Knorr were sucked into their death's...very senseless. Was their guide educated about the consequences of running the right side? I expect so...but it still happened. Did they see the sign? Probably...but it still happened. And it WILL happen again.

I just cannot figure out why the 13 of you that vote for leaving it alone can justify your stance, knowing that this beast will continue to kill.

T. Prater
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Old 07-18-2010   #79
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 403
I'm jumping on with Gary and going on the record saying "fill it in". Its not natural anyway.
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Old 07-18-2010   #80
Jenks, Oklahoma
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,407
lots of good reasons to do or not do river alterations

The bottom line is almost every year some one on this "easy run" get killed and maybe it is their fault, not their fault or it just happens. Placing blame is not going to stop this spot from killing boaters.

We just lost another person who might have in the future pulled some of us out of the water or gave the helping hand that saved one of us from injury. No way can we imagine the pain this accident has caused the friends and family of this young person.

I do not live in the area, I do visit the area once or twice a year and enjoy the Fractions run every chance I get.

For what it is worth, I agree with the post somewhere above that suggested that everyone toss a rock into the sieve channel.

This spot on the river has killed enough people - the fix is relatively simple. Toss in rocks the bigger the better. For all those who are concerned about river bed alterations - filling in the sieve with rocks is just helping the river flow do it's job of moving rocks around.

In the meantime, people are are giving up their lives needlessly.

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