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Old 07-16-2010   #61
Park City, Utah
Paddling Since: 1985
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 700
Bad Form

It is bad form to come to a public site and question the judgement of an individual after a death. I'm reminded of Noah's mothers post here following his fathers death on the payette.

Please consider the consequences of your need to be right. Please consider what you will want to see and hear on the day it is your close friend that has passed.

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Old 07-16-2010   #62
mr. compassionate's Avatar
conifer, Colorado
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 937
Originally Posted by Waterwindpowderrock View Post
I get you point, and... NO. I watched my wife swim through the slot a few years back, scared the piss out of me. That said, had I paid more attention to the sign I would have been more cautious about where we went.

Do we get rid of the rock that Derk got caught on then though? How about the sieve where James died? I don't mean to trivialize their deaths, I just really think that it's a sport with inherent risk & to assume that you can eliminate that risk is just not terribly realistic.
Point made several times above and for the life of me don't know how you don't get it. James and Derk weren't on beginner runs, filling in this sieve would not change the character of things how do you not see this?

Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchhill
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Old 07-16-2010   #63
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 31
Condolences to all and a very tragic accident. I want it clear I'm in no way judging this event just commenting on the sieve discussion. Regarding blasting or filling the sieve, part of boating is deciding what stretches you are capable of boating and your own personal acceptable risk. Although it is a "beginner stretch" the sieve is a known hazard, so why would you think of it as a beginner appropriate area? It's totally acceptable to put on at frog rock below tha rapid and from there to town is much more user friendly or you could do the milk run. Altering the river is as bad as chipping holds climbing and even douche sport climbers realize that's not cool, if you can't handle a feature be it class I-class V leave it be for thoose who can(know before you go), because as mentioned earlier where do you draw the line... Unless we want everthing to be the NC whitewater center, remember we're all in this to be out in the elements and test ousrelves in the natural environment....Otherwise we'd all go to water world there's more bikin's there anyway.
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Old 07-16-2010   #64
jboats's Avatar
Front Range, "Beautiful Colorado"
Paddling Since: 1996
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 64
My condolences

Don't change the river educate instead. Signs, better right ups in the guide books, etc. But changing the river for whatever reason by the boating community just isn't right or beneficial.... (including playparks to an extent, they are fun and they actually do work to airate the water and clean it. helps propogate postive aqautic ecosystems in otherwise damage location thanks to many other historical alterations)

Maybe the rafting company's should post 10 yr stats on the front doors, of the runs and the incidents that have occured at the various spots on the runs they guide. Just a thought on how to educate/properly inform the guides and the clients...

Again I'm so sorry and wish the best to all family and friends....
" ...this is the hardest sport I've ever tried!!",E. Brown, 2003
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Old 07-16-2010   #65
Eagle, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2004
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 80
I'm sorry, but can someone please explain how a sign or education can prevent this? From the accounts I have heard, the young lady's boat hit a rock and she popped out. No sign in the world can prevent that. Being a guide on the Ark, I am sure she knew the danger of swimming into Frog Rock. This is a class II/III mellow run that is frequented by thousands of recreationists every year. It is not a class V remote run. If having good "river kharma" means that we have to let someone's wife or daughter die in a heavily commercialized section of mellow whitewater when we could have easily prevented it, then I say screw river kharma. I don't want anything to do with it.
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Old 07-16-2010   #66
Boulder, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2002
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 76
I think that Frog Rock should remain as it is. I remember the first time I kayaked this rapid. I was kayaking with a Grand Canyon commercial river guide who had got her start on the Arkansas as a commercial river guide. We stopped to scout and she told me the stories of those that had died there. She pointed out how the undercut rock looks compared to one that is not. Frog Rock provided an opportunity for education of a situation that I would see on other rivers. Isn't that the way it should be? Being exposed to hazards and learning what the hazards look like on easier runs where there is an easy alternative to avoid the hazard. By the way, I would never take a beginner on Fractions-Frog Rock, only one ready for the lessons of the run. My condolences to friends and family.
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Old 07-16-2010   #67
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C. Springs, Colorado
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,443
Blast the damn thing and be done with it. They have messed with the river bed down stream to make a kayak park. Either plug the sieve or get rid of it all together before more people die. It's not like that river bed hasn't been modified before by the likes of man. Why are you all crying about modifing it in the first place?
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Old 07-16-2010   #68
loot87's Avatar
Lyons, Colorado
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 84
I vote to fill it.
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Old 07-16-2010   #69
Cphilli's Avatar
Copper Mountain, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2005
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 288
This is not the first case of a feature out of place for its classing. Many of us may know of dimple rock which from my understanding has caused many more deaths over the years then frog rock.

One example of a death that did lead to blasting is "knife edge" on the Moose(NY). This occurred after said boater was pinned down into a pothole, so they blasted a diversion around the left side of the rapid. I continue to use the sneak when I paddle this rapid but I will run the harder to hit lines on the rest of the river. And the reason I don't run the s-turn has been the stigma from the rapid, and being told the horror stories over the years about this one.

I also remember way back when the artificial playpark people were on the black river trying to mess with the riverbed. This initiative was met with a major fight by the locals who wanted to keep this feature "natural." You'll never guess what happened 3 years after the idea was shot down...... a rock lodged into the feature killing the wave(ruined the wave). A crew was brought in and physically moved 2 rocks out of the feature which now has made the rt3 wave better than ever. So technically now I guess you could call it a man made feature?

I guess what I am saying is there is not really a right or wrong on this issue. Many rivers have been afected by humans and our societies needs, but if we start changing the riverbeds for safer recreational use we are headed down a very slippery slope. I mean before you know it they could be messing around with more rivers/creeks because.... they can.

Luckily if you've had the privelige to paddle upstate NY, you know that is the ultimate place to learn kayaking in a friendly environment. Warm water, big flushy holes, few undercuts/sieves, and big volume make it a place to not be scared of swimming or flipping. Colorado in my opinion must be more unfriendly to those people who are trying to take their licks and climb the ladder, but I don't totally believe that this means the arkansas should become a totally artificial river.

The other week I was playboating at the friendly foam pile in the BV playpark, I like this spot and feel it is a good spot for beginners to playboat. Little did I know there is a pinning rock 150ft behind the wave and that I would have to help someone pull their boat off of it after they pinned their feet in between their boat and the rock while they tried to climb out of their boat. Risk is a big part of kayaking, and yes there are sieves in many class II/III rapids all over the country, and I won't disagree that sometimes these features are better off being removed in extreme cases(Like a rock moving in high water making a rapid much more dangerous). Is this frog rock one such feature? I'm sure if you do the math of how many people paddle through this rapid over how many have died in the feature it is still below 1%, and I have a really hard time destroying this when many guides and teachers can use it as an educational tool.
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Old 07-16-2010   #70
Eagle, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2004
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 80
Am I the only one who finds all of this talk about "guides using Frog Rock as an educational tool for the dangers of undercuts and sieves" unfathomable considering we are talking about a guide who just died at Frog Rock? If you want to explain to someone what an undercut or sieve looks like, show them a picture.

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