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Old 07-19-2010   #91
Buena Vista, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1985
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 88
Of the fatalities listed in the AW database, only three of the deaths have occured at Frog Rock (not six as is reported in the media and in a previous post).

The first was a single entrapment in July of 2000 and the other two were from a double entrapment in August of 2001. Both incidents involved rafts operated by commercial outfitters and occured at similar flows (between 600 and 700 cfs).

This recent accident will be the fourth fatality at Frog Rock.

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Old 07-19-2010   #92
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Park City/ Buena Vista, Utah/Colorado
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I heard the body was removed on Sunday the 18 by a dive crew from Summit, can anyone confirm?

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Old 07-19-2010   #93
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Denver, Colorado
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To all you "where does it stop" folks, I suggest we draw the line here. Today, that is a reasonable place for us to put an anchor in that slope you so fear. The slippery slope arguement is about the dumbest thought process one can resort to. Look at the current situation and make a judgment on it, not what your overactive imagination can extrapolate into the future.
+1 to modify it.

"I think I handled my alcohol pretty well considering how drunk I was." -Cousin Dan
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Old 07-19-2010   #94
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Buena Vista, Colorado
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Originally Posted by Tips^Up View Post
Hi OleMissBoater,
According to
American Whitewater - NWRI - Arkansas 04. Railroad Bridge Launch to Buena Vista
there have been at least 5 incidents leading to 6 deaths since 1990. Including this most recent accident, that's 7 people in 20 years killed at Frog Rock.
That is pure misinformation! If you actually read through those reports, they cover from Railroad Bridge to BV park. Only 2 of those reported deaths were directly caused by Frogrock itself. The two were a double drowning where the raft flipped on Frogrock and were carried deep into the undercut. The rest of the incidents listed were flush drownings somewhere else on this run. There was one indecent that did not list any details so it inconclusive as to where or what happened.

We still do not know what happened here and may never really know. I would of expected the sheriff to have recovered Kim if she was caught in the undercut. They did use cameras and probes to search for her and she was not found in the undercut. Hopefully she will be found soon and provide some sort of closure to those involved.

Opps, missed a page and did not see that some of this was covered above.

I would say if we are going to lobby for some change to this feature, the correct way to modify but not change the river would be to drill anchors into the undercut and pour concrete into the undercut. This would eliminate the undercut but would not change the actual rapid. This could be done when the flows drop off in the fall. I know I plan on going there this fall to take a closer look at the rock.
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Old 07-19-2010   #95
Thronton, Colorado
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In my opinion, both incidents Cadster references are a bit different than this one, although every bit as tragic. They are different in my opinion, because they involved hidden, unknown and "temporary" hazards. Frog Rock is neither hidden, unknown or temporary.

It is not uncommon for those "temporary" hazards to remove themselves sooner or later, but they are often removed by others rather than wait for mother nature to do it as well. Frog Rock is more than likely not going anywhere anytime soon, so it's not a bad thing to debate and consider intervention.

Someone above compared this to the blasting of Quartzite Falls on the Salt years ago. I've read accounts of that by both sides as well. Some are glad it's gone, others consider it tragic. I don't know any of the death statistics on that prior to the blasting, but I think that was done more out of convenience than saving lives (the blasting party was a raft guide as I recall). The commercials in particular didn't like running it. While I've never run it, I did portage it once with my Dad when I was young. While doing so, we actually got to witness several kayakers and one commercial trip actually run it. The commercial trip had some carnage, but nothing serious. Something like you might see on Gore I guess (never run that myself)? My Dad actually ran it with a friend one year in a small raft. He was young and stupid, but lived to tell about it. As close as he came to death in there, he'd have never wanted it blasted.

I mention this because I think it's an example of the slippery slope that some want to dismis. Someone took it upon themselves to solve a problem that didn't necessarilly need to be solved, nor did everyone necessarily want it to be solved. If we allow that to happen (individuals taking their own action), then what is next? Do we blast the Narrows on the Poudre so us rafters don't have to get out above it? That would be very similar to Quartzite. I personally love to stop and take a look at that one any time I am up that way. It's an amazing site to see, the way Mother Nature intended it. It may change over time, but for now, WOW, pretty cool in my opinion.

Back to Frog Rock. I think it's different than those I entioned though. It's a hazard for rafters and kayakers alike. It's permanent for all practical purposes. It's certainly proven fatal more than once. I would say (and I could be wrong here) there is far less chance of surviving a swim there than there was at Quartzite for example. I think it's an exception that warrants at least the debate being had here, but on a larger scale. Not sure who should take on the debate, but I think it's something that more than a handful of Buzzards should decide...
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Old 07-19-2010   #96
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Copper Mountain, Colorado
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American Whitewater - NWRI - Youghiogheny 6. Lower

If you look at the reports from 2000 you'll see that three people died in the same season in the same way under the same rock.

I know there must be a lot of emotion floating around, especially with those that knew the victim. I know that some people feel that this will not lead to a slippery slope but I have to disagree about that. Fact of the matter is we all have feet and if we do not feel comfortable with a rapid we know we can walk it. Also, if it comes to a question of people feeling too comfortable in this section of the ark, then the classing of this particular rapid should be changed. Going in and changing this rapid will give people the impression that if they can change the bed of anything if it is not "right" for boating. Next thing we know people will be blasting 20 footers to make the landing pool deep enough if you miss your boof, and piton rocks out of the bottom of slides so you don't have to worry about hitting a line.

If frog rock is indeed blasted and creates a feature killing more than the original what is the plan after that? People have died and will continue to die from whitewater boating, as soon as a government authority is put in charge of removing hazardous features out of one river they then will move on to the next (because that is who we know will be looked to for these matters).
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Old 07-19-2010   #97
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Park City/ Buena Vista, Utah/Colorado
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Put Mike Harvey on it. If they can build super fun play waves in towns, why can't they do the same thing there. Who would complain if the rock were rolled over and filled around the edge with cement to make 1 huge classy wave.
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Old 07-19-2010   #98
Golden, Colorado
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,012
Fill it in. A sieve that has killed people on a crowded commercially run Class II/III beginner stretch, that adds nothing to the character of the rapid other than making it uncharacteristically deadly for the run, and that nobody would miss for it's own sake doesn't need to be there.

I don't see the slippery slope argument. Can't people in the USA exercise judgment anymore without setting completely unrelated precedent?
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Old 07-19-2010   #99
no tengo
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Baytopia, Colorado
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so just so you guys know you can't just go altering features on public lands. armchair debates are great but someone will need to do a study get a permit etc etc.
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Old 07-19-2010   #100
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N/A, North Carolina
Paddling Since: 2010
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Posts: 325
I completely disagree with the man commenting about blasting 20 footers. Is there a 20 footer commercially ran in Colorado? I don't recall any. I think the sieve needs filled, it's a hazard that is deadly. The run is a beginner stretch and many individuals that run it aren't ready to deal with that hazard. Simply put a 10 pound rock in your boat at the put in eddy out at Frog Rock and drop it in before you run/portage. This isn't a slippery slope, it's an educated decision.

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