Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-09-2007   #71
Denver, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1999
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 16
Originally Posted by SummitAP View Post
Political correctness is for pussies who think that they have the right to never be offended. Mother Nature and her rivers don't give two shits if anyone is offended. Class IV/V is no place to be sparing people's feelings.
Amen, tell them that it is in your job description to be discriminatory and they should respect you for it... If they don't - boo f'n hoo

CheckYoSelf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2007   #72
Caspian's Avatar
Englewood, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1978
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 882
Originally Posted by StoneCB View Post
Go to West Virginia, then tell me fat people can't run class V.
Not the issue - the issue is whether they - and anyone else with an disadvantage in a self-rescuse situation (i.e., hungover, drunk, out of shape, heart condition, just arrived from sea level, 4% body fat, bad swimmer, etc.) - are more likely to die in a swim on the cold and continuous water in the Rockies. The answer is yes. Pretty much everyone on this board could swim any rapid on the Ark and be ok unless they took blunt trauma to the head or spine. The same is not true of someone off the street and even less true when you add in any of the factors listed above. If Marlon Brando nailed the line through Jacob's Ladder on the coldest day of the year it doesn't mean that he wasn't at greater risk. Andy, Greg, anyone...what is up with carriage returns not posting?? One paragraph posts get it my settings?

Join up, suckas.

"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid."
- Soren Kierkegaard
Caspian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2007   #73
raftus's Avatar
Boulder, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2000
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,128
Originally Posted by KUpolo View Post
Exactly. Clear Creek is a bit closer to home for me than the Ark but it is the same situation here. I can't begin to tell you how unsurprised I was that someone died on the Kermit's stretch this year.

Rafting that run with tourists when it is running above 700 is just asking for trouble. It is much more difficult than the Numbers and swims are almost always ugly. I have logged a lot of runs on that stretch and have seen commercial rafts dumping far too often for me to think that it is an anomaly. If the family of the deceased wanted to bring a negligence suit against the rafting company, they would probably be in good shape.

I understand trying to make a living, but at what cost?
Wow - suggesting that that family of the deceased "would be in good shape" bringing a suit is a sad reflection of two things: Your lack of knowledge about the situation and the events that transpired, and second the sad state of our litigious society.

The person who died on Clear Creek died of congenital heart defects. Rafting is a sport that carries risk, but don't forget that people also die every year at Disney. (11 in the last 2 1/2 years according to Chicago Tribune Disney reports 2 deaths to state | Chicago Tribune)

It is also sad that you seem to hold the belief that people should be free to sign documents that explicitly state the inherent risks of rafting but not be responsible for actually reading or understanding what they are signing. Personal freedom also comes with personal responsibility.

It is true that Upper Clear Creek is class IV and has many man made elements that aren't found in more natural riverbeds. That means that obstacles are located in places (like upper and lower beaver) that are quite unnatural. This makes more demands on guides than more natural riverbeds do. However that doesn't mean that it can't be guided competently and within the usual level of risk associated with rafting.

Originally Posted by COUNT View Post
If the Numbers and Gorge are V, then what is Gore? It certainly doesn't help that the BLM signs at all the river access points do this too (Sunshine is V, everything on Brown's is a IV, etc.).

Sunshine used to be a harder rapid until it changed in the 90's. It is also worth considering that many of the signs on the Ark are probably based on rafting and kayaking standards from 10 or 20 years ago. There is danger in sandbagging, and you are absolutely right that gore is on another level compared to numbers and the gorge, and it is also a real step up from Pine Creek in my opinion. My guess is that AHRA would rather give ratings for high water and old/more conservative ratings than try to be on the current grading system - and it is probably the more legally defensible position for them. My 2 cents.
raftus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2007   #74
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 161
Originally Posted by raftus View Post
Wow - suggesting that that family of the deceased "would be in good shape" bringing a suit is a sad reflection of two things: Your lack of knowledge about the situation and the events that transpired, and second the sad state of our litigious society.

The person who died on Clear Creek died of congenital heart defects. Rafting is a sport that carries risk, but don't forget that people also die every year at Disney. (11 in the last 2 1/2 years according to Chicago Tribune Disney reports 2 deaths to state | Chicago Tribune)
Please see my follow up post. I was not aware of the heart defect but was simply trying to imply that I have seen a disproportionately high amount of rafts dumping in this particularly dangerous spot and eventually, given our litigious society, it is going to happen.

I tried to edit the post but for some reason cannot.
KUpolo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2007   #75
Johnson City, Tennessee
Paddling Since: 1998
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 11
Just out of curiosity

Just out of curiousity... Why do you all think that the deaths are on the numbers or below but none on pine creek section. What are the companies doing differently on a harder section? Does anybody know what specifics caused the deaths for any of the five this season( head injuries with or without helmets, hypothermia, caridovascular issues etc.) or the deceased level of fitness, experience, and swimming ability? Im interested in any of the five deaths particularly the guide. Also does anybody know the death or injury rates on Gore or the Cherry section of the Tuolumne? Thanks
Russell Marcus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2007   #76
pnw, Washington
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,404
KU, if you cant edit something, send me a pm of what you want changed and I will take care of it.

Caspian, I did some tests and dude its just you. Your special! I went into my options and saw that my editor is set to the following, try changing the misc options and setting your editor to what mine is set to.

enhanced interface - full w......blah, blah
"Yesterday I was clever and tried to change the world. Today I am wise and try to change myself." -Rumi
gh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2007   #77
yakrafter's Avatar
Whitewater Boater, Boating Whitewater
Paddling Since: 2004
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 147
I don't see the problem.

Sorry folks died.

No new laws or rules. Life is risky, if you do not understand a risk, explore, get educated or whatever. Otherwise it is your ass on the line. If the guide or no one else speaks up when they are concerned about a particular guest, then it could be their ass.

I think it is something like 44000 deaths a year in a car. 300 mil Americans. That's a 1/6818 chance of dieing in a auto in the US each year. AW quotes .86 deaths per 100,000 user days on WW all crafts.

If we say 5/7 user days for drivers that would be 261 driving days a year per person. So 44000/261 wholecountry userdays is 169 deaths per wholecountry user day divided by 300,000,000 US people is 5.61*10^-7 deaths per user day or .056 deaths per 100,000 user days for driving. .86/.056 is approx 15. You are 15 times more likely to die in a car user day than a boat user day, but most people have 3+ times more car user days than boating so that goes to 5 (or less) times more likely to die in a car than a boat in general for our crowd. For someone who only boats once in 10 years and still drives they are now way way way more likely to die while driving in that time period. Also most deaths that AW quoted were private and the largest number in their national survey where on the Ark. (late 90's). So what?

So my point is that people die, sometimes doing what they want, somtimes doing what they do not want, sometimes doing what they did not understand. Only recently did we get on this kick that no one is allowed to die and anything a "normal family" with 2.2 kids can do needs to be safe. Get off it. Let people do what they want and if they are not smart enough to evaluate the risks then that person should decide not to go or has not completed their training into adulthood and their parents should decide for them.

I do not really see an issue here (with the deaths). If people do not think that a certain company is safe enough, work to deter that company's business personally by spreading the word, NO NEW LAWS NEEDED, capitolism with information will work this out.

It is the responsiblity to the individual to get educated and evaluate the risk. The guide should only be responsible for guiding and kicking off an obviously unfit person (they can decide this) or getting that release signed.

As I said to the judge "unless he strapped her to the horse, taped her mouth, tied the horses feet together and hit it's rear with a 2x6, I don't know how it can be the horse owner's fault. Law or no law. She wanted to ride the horse and accepted the risk and now she has a broken back, end of storey." He said "you're on the jury!"
yakrafter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2007   #78
FR, CO, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1992
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2
I usually don't post.... but I guess I have really strong feelings about this particular subject. I am originally from Europe and have rafted lots over there and now also here in the USA, especially in Colorado. I have rafted with commercial outfitters on the harder stretches and have never in many years encountered a guide that was not knowledgable and didn't put safety first. When I was on a commercial trip down Pine Creek two years ago the commercial outfitter turned away two customers that had already paid, very mad customers I might add, because the lead guide didn't think they were experienced enough to take on Pine Creek. I have observed the same situations on other occations as well. I know it's easy to look to blame and in certain situation there is probably somebody that is to blame. But not always..... and we shouldn't turn commerical outfitters or loose laws into scapegoat. Overall, I think the commercial outfitters do what they can in order to keep everyone safe. Accidents happen.... it's very sad and tragic and my heart goes out to all the families that have to deal with a tragedy of this magnitude. But, I guess I just wanted to speak up for all the guides out there.... I have nothing but good things to say about them and I have seen on multiple occations how commerical outfitters put safety before money....
Gabii is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2007   #79
JCKeck1's Avatar
Seattle, Washington
Paddling Since: 1999
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,471
Send a message via AIM to JCKeck1
Russell, Pine creek is a different story. It is only one class V-. All the rafts pull over and scout. Then two rafts run it with a safety kayaker in front and the other guides with ropes at the hole. Then the lead guides get out and hold ropes for the other rafts. People can easily walk the rapid if the guide or person isn't feeling up to it. Also, the guides up there are crack aces. When I worked, most of us were ski patrollers with EMT and SWR certs plus a bare minimum of 6 years on the river (most were over 10). None of this stuff is possible on Browns, Numbers, clear creek or even Gore because it would be too time consuming to set safety and check out every rapid. Also for the record, I have seen 5 customers swim the very bottom of Kirshbaum's. They were all in reasonable shape - big firefighters. Everyone of the them freaked. One wouldn't have made it to shore without my assist and I pulled another one out unconscious.
My thoughts:
1: Generally more people die in class III browns/fractions than in the numbers or class V. This is probably for many reasons such as the guides being better and the fewer number of people on harder stretches. But without a doubt client fitness levels are a factor and I believe the reason the most deaths occur in class III is because the most unfit people are found in class III. In '96 there were something like 24 deaths on the Ark due to high water of 6000cfs. Lots of those were cardiac related.
2: 5 deaths in a CO season isn't that high. I'd say the average from my experience is 4 or so. Ski resorts and back country skiers top that easily every winter.
3: Live and celebrate life, however long yours may be.
JCKeck1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2007   #80
Johnson City, Tennessee
Paddling Since: 1998
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 11

Thanks Joe, was just wondering. I paddled the Ark only a couple times and gore alot and could not remember the Ark much. I saftey boated gore three times out of Vail and it was always had one commercial raft, a guide raft and me as the safety boater. I couldnt imagine many people wanting to raft gore or similar rivers and always happy to be in my kayak. Russell

Russell Marcus is offline   Reply With Quote


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

Similar Threads
Topic Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Commercial Rafting: January-Mid May willieWAO Whitewater Rafting 2 11-04-2006 09:10 PM
Animas deaths mvhyde Whitewater Kayaking 71 08-19-2005 08:58 AM
Revised ICP Comments due March 5 Marco Whitewater Kayaking 0 02-27-2004 03:43 PM
"NEW" ICP Arkansas PLan Jahve Whitewater Kayaking 8 02-24-2004 03:57 PM

» Classified Ads
Jackson Rock Star(Medium)

posted by Paddling Life

Brand new 2016 Jackson Kayak Rock Star

Dagger Mamba Creeker 8.1

posted by rjskibum

2014-Dagger Mamba Creeker 8.1 Purchased July 2014 from...

Shitty Mank Boat

posted by deepsouthpaddler

Jackson Villian L Mank Boat If you have ever dreamed of...

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities

Copyright 2002-2012 Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:16 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.