Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-09-2007   #31
The next zone, .
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,200
Well i was wrong - one of the many downsides to drunken posting. From what I see the AHRA and the commercial companies do all they can to avoid such accidents. My river miles here on the Ark start in 84 and the changes that the commercial outfitting industry have made to keep trips safe since that time are way to many to list.

Just a couple of things to think about. The Ark is it's own monster. Every commercial company chooses what sections it will run for trips. This is different for every company out there.

Also hstorically there are some companies who have more accients than others. There are a few big companies out there that have never had a commercial death but not many. It seems that no matter what company - sometime they had a bad accident.

With 60 commercial permits on the Ark some outfitters run 30k+ guests and some run 100. Some companies run only on the Ark and some out of valley companies may only be up here 1 day a week or so.

I know the numbers gets hit harder in the late season by out of area commercials due to the lack of water on the roaring fork, colorado, and eagle rivers. So some companies move these trips over here later in the season.

I have also seen single boat trips up in the numbers run by more than one company that did not have a saftey boaters - this year. Not sure why any company would do this.

Companies have a use it or loose it on the historic use that they are given. If they don't hit 80% for the year in any given section they loose that use. If you look at the numbers they have been increasing the use by 10 boats per day - historically.

This means that the largest historic users of the numbers get the biggest bump in use. I think that some of these companies are havin a hard time filling up these boats with normal numbers customers and will fill the boats with any guests just to keep their 80% intact. They are just gettin more historic use than they have ever used or can fill with solid numbers customers but they have to keep that historic use intact - so the manager is put in the position of putting who ever on the water or gettin fired for losing historic use. This is the biggest problem in the numbers today.

Oh yea - i did not spell check and just shot this out - hammer me if you like. Only one day a week off and Lake creek will soon be at a boring/disneyland level so off I am for a day of creekin.

White lightning those are the stats that I have seen - by AW. Shows a good point.

Jahve is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2007   #32
V for Victory
9300ft, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2005
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 329
Send a message via AIM to SummitAP
I don't have a super strong opinion on whether there is a problem.

I think that ultimately if the guides and companies make it as explicitly clear just how dangerous and deadly things are and clarify the physical demands, as so long as they make safety gear and alternate trips available, they have fulfilled their responsibility.

Ultimately, if there is a problem, the industry will have to self regulate because if they do not, .gov will do it for them.

Originally Posted by yourrealdad View Post
Think of if you tell someone that they can't go rafting because they are too fat or too old ... the suicide that happens a week later.
That is just asinine. Shut up your mouth.

SummitAP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2007   #33
yourrealdad's Avatar
185 lb. waste of space, Keeping Glenwood Springs real
Paddling Since: 1864
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 917
Originally Posted by SummitAP View Post

That is just asinine. Shut up your mouth.
Do you want me to shut up or shut my mouth? I am typing anyways not speaking unless you are one of those "slower" people who reads outloud what they are typing and moves their lips when they read and then I think I should tell you that YOU can't go rafting because I don't take fatties, dust buckets, and retards. Now that isn't very PC, is it now?

Over 400,000 teenagers die every year in auto accidents in the US, are we going to stop letting young adults drive? Or are we going to change the speed limits to 20mph. Hell no we are not. Why? Because it is the tradeoff for convenience and people are free to choose what they want to do, they accept the risk. That is why we are slaughtering people in foreign countries, so fat and old people have the freedom to raft. Maybe you didn't celebrate that little holiday 5 days ago you damn pinko commie bastard.
970-217-21 six six
yourrealdad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2007   #34
San Diego and Frisco, CO
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 107
More suggestions?

Glad this thread got going, this story haunted me since I read it in the paper July 5th. According to the Mountain Mail article, there were 19 people on two rafts and 12 people "dumped into the water." That was a tough rescue situation for anybody, even for pre-set safety boats.
Does anybody have more accurate info about this incident? Were the 19 folks temporarily on those rafts or is that common practice?
I'd like to see less emphasis on the age of the female victims and more facts on this particular incident.

Kimy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2007   #35
pnw, Washington
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,404
Dont we still have some water left to paddle? The name calling and bitching doesnt usually start till September.
"Yesterday I was clever and tried to change the world. Today I am wise and try to change myself." -Rumi
gh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2007   #36
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 161
Originally Posted by oopsiflipped View Post
Why don't you nuke this dumbass post from this ignorant fool?

I did not know that the death was caused by a defective heart so I would definitely rephrase my post but for some reason I am locked out of editing it.

I stand by my assertion that there are better stretches to be running with tourists. I have seen way to many rafts get dumped in or above Double Knife for me to think that it is safe.
KUpolo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2007   #37
Denver, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2004
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,097
Most of the commercial rafting Co's I've had limited experience with did a good job, had experienced guides and provided good gear, but not everyone does so well. With that said...

Don't tell someone they are running class IV and V rapids when they are running class III (coworker is running royal gorge and was told IV/V). This just confuses people and gives them a false sense of security. Maybe not everyone does this, but I've heard way to many people tell me they rafted class V. Thats just plain stupid.

Put some fricking gear on people. Every time I see somebody in a cotton T-shirt on the numbers in a commerical raft I think accident waiting to happen. Give them a fricking splash jacket at least. No helmets? Rock to the head leading to unconsiousness could drown somebody in a heartbeat. Even the $20 cheapo helmets help that out. I am amazed when I see people without helmets in whitewater.

As a community of boating enthusiasts with both private and commerical interests we owe it to ourselves to analyze incidents and try to improve upon our safety and performance. We have come a long way, but there is still room for improvement.
deepsouthpaddler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2007   #38
gapers's Avatar
Not a river guide, Ft. FunK
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 276
Wont' someone, please, think of the children!!!
Devils advocate
gapers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2007   #39
A-Town!, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1998
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 91
Originally Posted by deepsouthpaddler View Post
Don't tell someone they are running class IV and V rapids when they are running class III (coworker is running royal gorge and was told IV/V). This just confuses people and gives them a false sense of security. Maybe not everyone does this, but I've heard way to many people tell me they rafted class V. Thats just plain stupid.
A few weeks ago, my wife and her sisters ran Upper Clear Creek with a company out of Idaho Springs. When she got home we got into a bit of an argument about what Class it was. Apparently, the guide told them that they ran two Class V rapids. I informed them it was Class IV, and settled it with my book.

But, I totally agree that this practice of over-rating rapids causes more confusion than it does good.

My condolences go out to the families and friends of the rafters in the accident.
ec is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2007   #40
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 772
As far as screening guests the company I used to work for would turn down people from the numbers regularly. I think that is common practice by any major company in the Ark Valley. Saying a company will just take the money over the ability of someone is rediculous.

Safety kayaks are not the answer, if there are two flipped boats with 19 people what is one kayak going to do? Are you going to say they need 19 kayaks for 19 people. As far as 19 people in two boats that seems like a lot, and I think it is becuase it was a company from Vail.

Naturally there are going to be more deaths on the Ark there are a lot more rafters on it than any other river. From guiding on the ark and observing other guides on the ark I would say the guides are much better trained than guides I have seen on other rivers. Taining should take place at parkdale instead of brown's? So guides should be trained on a stretch they will see a couple times a year instead of on the stretch where they will work every day so they are next to the highway? That would cause more problems then helping.

There haven't been this many deaths on the ark in a while so everyone is freaking out about it. It is a risk taken when people sign up, it's not hidden from them either. I think the companies as well as guides on the ark do a great job.

Just my two cents

Nathan is offline   Reply With Quote


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

Similar Threads
Topic Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Commercial Rafting: January-Mid May willieWAO Whitewater Rafting 2 11-04-2006 09:10 PM
Animas deaths mvhyde Whitewater Kayaking 71 08-19-2005 08:58 AM
Revised ICP Comments due March 5 Marco Whitewater Kayaking 0 02-27-2004 03:43 PM
"NEW" ICP Arkansas PLan Jahve Whitewater Kayaking 8 02-24-2004 03:57 PM

» Classified Ads
Jackson Karma Large

posted by Mmcquillen

2016 L Karma, used for 1/2 a season. Bought it new in July...

2016 Dagger Axiom 9.0 (LG)

posted by atom

2016 Dagger Axiom 9.0 Used a handful of times. Great...

Used Pyranha 9R...

posted by Rendezvous River Sports


Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities

Copyright 2002-2012 Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:36 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.